CONVO: Skunk & Cryin Out Loud

After his super turf horse, Cryin Out Loud, had just scored an incredible third Grade 1 win of the season in the $2,500,000 Kakarazuka Kinen Cup in Japan on Saturday, Skunk of Skunkbarn Stables was understandably elated.  Or maybe he was thrilled to death.

Either would have certainly been understandable.

After all, In winning that race, Crying Out Loud became the first horse in the SIM to capture three grade 1 wins this season–quite an astounding accomplishment–and we’re only halfway through the 2012 season.

Despite the fact that the five-year old son of Street Cry has 13 graded starts in his 20 career races, with earnings of a little over $4.6 million, and despite the fact he’s scored three grade 1 wins this year, Cryin Out Loud is still only ranked number two in what is conceivably one of the toughest divisions in the SIM, the Older Males Classic Turf Division.  

Your horse wins three grade 1’s in a season, it’s still only July, and you’re only ranked #2 in your division.  Now, that’s ONE tough division, indeed.

The BTB caught up with Skunk, after Cryin Out Loud’s big win in Japan this weekend, and below is the interview–in its entirety–with the man who owns probably what could be considered not only one of the hottest older horses in the SIM right now but almost an odds on favorite for one of the bigger awards come the end of the season, if he keeps on winning the way he has.

Question:

Let’s talk about yesterday’s big race in Japan.  Did it pretty much go the way you thought it would?  Talk about how the race went here, maybe you could take us thru it call by call?  Going into Saturday’s race, what horses were you particularly concerned about?  Obviously you have quite a rivalry going on with Yak, since he beat you last times. So maybe you could talk about that here a little, and compare the last two races between your horse and YAK.  And were there any other horses in the field that particularly concerned you yesterday?

Skunk:

We had a great day Saturday in winning the Kakarazuka Kinen Cup. Did you see that field? Eight of the ten starters had earned over $1 million! We had some questions to answer in this race, and I think they were answered emphatically with his win.

First off, the 11-furlong distance is not one we’re used to running in the SIM. You’ve got your 12F races and your 10F races aplenty. So 11 furlongs attracted some of the best from both realms. Our boy opened the door to some questions after not running his race last time out, so I was concerned there would be a repeat of his last performance. Fortunately, we’ve won at this distance last year and finished third in this race last year so there was some history supporting him in this spot.

Second, how would the pace scenario play out? I think we got a little complacent in our last race by running the same way when there was clearly no pace to run at. I give credit to Yak’s trainer because his horse was much better placed than ours and given Yak’s stamina going longer, he won handily and we struggled. With 11 furlongs in this race, one furlong further than the last, we were very concerned with Yak. So we needed to get Cryin Out Loud away in good order and not get too far back, given the closers in this race could easily make the distance having dropped back from 12F and longer. If we could get first run and make the lead we’d be in good shape since Cryin Out Loud hasn’t been passed yet in his career after making a lead.

We felt there would be an honest pace laid down by And Now It Begins and Fairway To Heaven and we got it. And Now It Begins was coming off two huge front-running wins at this level, and speed is always dangerous so we were planning on settling into good position early and save some ground. I was a bit concerned we may be too close to the leaders (only 3 ¼ lengths back) through the middle of the race. But jockey C. Roser had him relaxed and saved him some ground. Seeing Yak just off his flank for the first half of the race had me worried. I could see déjà vu all over again playing out.

But when Cryin Out Loud was asked to get into it a bit, he responded with a steady, methodical advance. Yak was not full of the same run as his last race, so my hopes immediately improved. The question now would be can my horse hold off the closers?

Roser caught And Now It Begins close enough to Fairway To Heaven to keep his ground, saving position, but not impeding his advance on the leader who was beginning to tire a bit on the rail. That was probably the winning move of the race because you had to expect the cavalry to be coming late on the outside. Thankfully they showed up a bit late and we were not pressed into the finish.

Question:

Your horse is the only three-time grade 1 winner this year, you noted yesterday in the pre-interview session.  Now, it’s only the beginning of July.  Can you talk a little about your plans for the rest of the year here, with Crying Out Loud.  Where will we see Cryin Out Loud run next? And what exactly do you plan to do with him the rest of this season.  Are there any big races, in particular, that you are targeting?

Skunk:

Wow, what to do next?  Right now we’re going to give Cryin Out Loud an 8-week rest and comeback in the Grade 1 Judgemont.  After that, we have some choices.  Try the 12-furlong distance in the Grade 1 Coalminer or perhaps the G3 Ark Trial at 11-furlong.  Depending on how he fares, for his third race back, we have the Grade 1 Coxless at 10 furlongs or Grade 1 Breeders’ Bowl Turf at 12 furlongs.  The remainder of the year has the 12 furlong Grade 1 Japan Classic, the 10-furlong Grade 1 King Kong Cup and 12-furlong Grade 1 King Kong Vase to choose from, and we would like to run in one of those for sure.

Question:

Let’s talk about Cyrin Out Loud’s breeding here.  He’s a scratch-bred Street Cry x Giant‘s Causeway x Mill Reef, and I think we’d all like to know what it is about those three sires and that particular combination that makes Cryin Out Loud so special. What particularly qualities about your horse that you like (speed, endurance, stamina, etc.) come from which sires?  Maybe you could just sort of talk in general about his breeding here, and why you picked those three for the scratch breeding?  And also, when you bred him, were you thinking classic turf?  Or were you thinking something else, as far as surface or distance goes?

Skunk:

In looking back to the time he was bred, I recall remembering not getting any turfers by Street Cry up to that point. I wanted one badly and saw two others bred before mine that were promising. Minot and Outback Andy were well on their way to nice careers and what looked to be their secret to success compared to previous tries of Street Cry with a Giant’s Causeway mare was the dam’s dam sire. Both had Danzig as their DDS. I didn’t see a strong enough turf influence there in any of the others, and Mill Reef had been a favorite of mine for a long time, so he was my choice as the dam‘s dam sire.

So, at the time of his breeding, the Street Cry x Giant’s Causeway nick hadn’t been productive. I like to try and do things pedigree-wise that make sense that aren’t overdone or in the case with this pedigree, strategically use a different DDS to make the difference.

In today’s world, you’re more likely to see inbred crosses of the Northern Dancer and Mr. P lines. Mill Reef was a perfect choice for avoiding that. In fact, his pedigree has a 4Dx5S to Never Bend, which I’d hope would tilt the probability towards favoring turf and it very well may have.

If you’re trying to breed a turf horse, I can’t imagine you’re hoping for a sprinter or miler. The Classic distance is what you are after, because that’s where the big boys duke it out week in and week out. The rest is a rain dance, voodoo or whatever you think will impart enough stamina to your horse at breeding to get a 10-furlong and above runner.

Question:

Cryin Out Loud is only five years old, with 20 starts, and he’s got nearly what, now? Something like $5 million in the bank? That’s pretty impressive. Let’s talk about how you’ve campaigned Cryin Out Loud here. He started running graded stakes early on in his career. Why was that? It seems it didn’t take him long to develop at all. Maybe you could take us from the beginning of his career up until now.

Skunk:

Starting with his debut, which was unimpressive, to say the least, I believed he wanted more distance from his first start on. I tried him at 8 furlongs in his second start just for baseline purposes, hoping I could give him a pass in his debut. He showed great run second out and we were off to hunt for more distance. He got it when breaking his maiden at 9F winning by a margin of 3 ¼ lengths.

For his next few races, he ran through his conditions up to NW3X. I’m a firm believer in running a horse through their conditions, no matter how good you think they are. That’s a hard lesson learned, but it consistently pays dividends in the overall career of the horse. He won those conditioned allowances so easily improving each time that it was time to try stakes. I think scheduling worked out that there was a grade 3 race for him when he was next “Sharp” on his schedule. I didn’t purposely point to the grade 3 at that point. He won just as handily as he had done before, so I knew then that he was better than just a real good horse.

I think his next listed stakes win was a situation where he couldn’t draw into a bigger race that week and that was all that was left for him. He was very professional and won, keeping his win streak alive even though he’d shortened up a bit.

The moment of truth had come. Put the 6 race win streak on the line against grade 1 company. He made it seven wins in a row with his first grade 1 win in the Tattersalls Gold.

The rest of the year was spent facing the SIM’s best every race. He compiled one win, two seconds and two shows out of six races, and all of them were grade 1’s or grade 2’s.

We tried getting him ready for the 12-furlong races, and he had a nice second in the Grade 1 Coalminers‘ Cup, but he faltered big time in the Breeders’ Bowl Turf. In looking back, it may not have been the best thing to do…running those two 12F races. But the lure of Breeders’ Bowl was probably what got me. I’m hoping the reason he didn’t perform as well at 12 furlongs was due to the fact that those were his 10thand 11th races without at least an 8-week rest in between races.

I finally gave him the rest he needed so badly after the King Kong Cup last season, about 8 weeks off during the winter, and he returns in his first race of the year and runs huge taking the Grade 1 Mr. Met Cap to kick off this season. He was back!

With a dearth of graded races early in the schedule, we found the Grade 2 Victoria Cup to our liking and ran into a sleeping monster in Galileo Stables’ Sandor. It’s tough running a lifetime best 117 and finishing second but tougher losing to a good friend who you’re competitive with. And that’s exactly what happened to us in that race.

As luck would have it, the next Grade 1 up for us was The Queen’s Spring Cup, and it came up a little wet. Not a problem, as Cryin Out Loud was two for two on off-turf surfaces prior to winning the Queen’s Spring Cup that day. He won going away by 4 lengths and nearly repeating the speed in his previous race with a 116 speed figure.

In the Grade 1 Tatersall’s Gold this year, we ran into Yak and a pace-less race and I think Cryin Out Loud possibly bounced a little bit. Take nothing away from Yak, as he was better placed throughout than my boy and was never really challenged.

That’s why coming back against Yak and this strong field to win this week was impressive.

Question:

What particular race in Cryin Out Loud’s career told you, “Wow! I think I might have a real beast on my hands here!”?  At what exact point in his career did you think you might have really gotten something special in this breeding?  Was it a particular race? Or was it just the way his speed figures were going?  I mean, he threw a triple digit his second time out on the track. How impressive was that back then?

Skunk:

Turf racing is super competitive and winning straight through conditions is tough on any surface and any distance at any age. So when he was NW4X eligible and won his first graded race of his career, the Grade 3 Night At The Exbury (in March of last season) just as handily as he had his allowance conditions, I knew he was going to be good.  Speed figures don’t always tell the entire story especially at the graded level, so after winning the Grade 1 Tatersall’s Gold in 2011 by 3 ¼ lengths, I knew he could be great. His return from his 8-week vacation to win the Grade 1 Mr. Met Cap earlier this season woke me up to the possibilities of him having a Horse of The Year campaign.  But to validate this, he needed a second grade 1 win.

Winning his second Grade 1 of the season in the Queen’s Spring Cup this season did this and elevated him to special in my mind.  Winning the third Grade 1 of the year this past weekend in Japan is probably THE race that solidifies him as a “beast”.  In 2011, five horses won three grade 1 races or more with only Older Turf Horse of The Year Signs of Change winning four grade 1 races.  In 2010, there were five horses as well that won three grade one races or more, with only Tatsu winning four.  The great King Tachyon won older horse of the year with only 3 grade 1‘s. We’re one win away from being in rare company of netting four G1s, and five grade 1 wins is not out of the question.

Question:

Let’s talk a little about the division you run in, and how tough it is.  I mean, despite the fact you’ve got all that money in so few starts, and you’ve been 17-20 in the top three in your career with Cryin Out Loud, it’s a pretty tough division, to say the least.  Your horse is not even ranked #1.  That honor would go to a horse called Perfect Beast right now, who’s just won two grade one races in a row.  Do you plan to see Perfect Beast down the road sometimes, and where do you thing that showdown between the #1 and #2 ranked horses in the division could take place?  How do you think your horse stack up against Perfect Beast, who looks to be going on quite a tear of his own right now?  It would be a turf showdown made in Heaven, were the two to meet.  And maybe you could talk a little here about Magniforma and Frankster, as you did in our pre-interview session yesterday.  How long have you known Frank? And perhaps you could talk about the way you and he think alike in certain things, as you noted yesterday?

Skunk:

All of the turf divisions are brutal. The 9-11 furlong races may be most difficult from the perspective that there are 9-10 furlong runners, 10F runners, 10-11 furlong runners, and those who run 12F that drop down and run 10-11 furlongs occasionally. The 12 furlong division is pretty static by comparison.

Perfect Beast is a great looking horse and is handled extremely well. One could argue he’s the hottest turf horse going off of two grade 1 wins in a row at 10 furlongs. He’s handled business as expected, but those races–if there were any knock to be had–had weaker competition than what Cryin Out Loud has faced.

We may meet each other at some point. Our rest after 8 weeks will help that possibility given there is a 3-week difference in the current race schedules between the two. If Perfect Beast runs one time while we’re resting, that should line the two horses up for a potential show down.

The horse I’m keeping an eye on to turn the turf world upside down is Frankster’s Magniforma, a filly. She’s a freak. She’s already beaten males in two grade 1 races in her career, and if she were to concentrate on the 12 furlong distance in grade 1 races, whether male or female, she may be hard to overlook as Older Female On Turf AND Older Turf Horse. She could win both awards.  I’m not sure if that’s ever been done before, but she has the proven talent.  It’s great to see Frankster and I have such great racehorses.  We’ve been friends for some time now and have always approached things from a similar strategy in our training.  Who knows, I might have to send my boy against his girl and hope Cryin Out Loud can keep his mind on racing. After all, Magniforma is a pretty girl!

Question:

Let’s talk about some of the other big horses you’ve had in the sim.  How long have you been training here?  You said something in the pre-interview session earlier, about coming back to the SIM a second time, after a hiatus from training?  Did you take a break from the game and then return, and when was that?  And, if so, what made you come back?  How do you feel your first time around influenced the way you do things this time around?

Skunk:

I’ve been fortunate upon my return to the SIM after a 3 ½ year sabbatical to begin earning some level of success. I’d been playing for around 5 years before taking the leave of absence. It was catching up with my old bargain breeding pal SJ Meola that got me back into the swing of things. So I owe him a cut of whatever my annual earnings as tribute!

It was shortly after returning that I bumped into Otistaylor in SIM chat where I was recruited for the Blazing Saddles residency.

I declined initially, but after reflecting back to the old days when I was one of the few Yanks at that New South Wales residency, I visited and got to know some folks there and began to call Blazing Saddles home. That one decision probably has led to more of my training turn around success than anything else. The things I’ve learned from a whole host of folks there over the last few years have been invaluable.

I’ve had a lot of horses I’ve loved come and go through my stables. Not all were graded winners but to keep the list short my first grade 1 winner was Grey Goose Gimlet.  She won the 9 furlong 3 YO Filly Turf Equinics race two years ago.  Faraday Cage was my second grade 1 winner and just missed in a photo in the 2010 Breeders Bowl Turf.  He was also my first multiple grade 1 winner.

Magnification was a multi-million dollar purchase at auction who has become one of my multiple graded stakes winning horses with one of those wins being a grade 1.  El Skunkberto Slew became a G1 winner when taking down the inaugural Grade 1 Rhys-Smith Turf Classic in Australia last season.  Last but not least, Samuel Bennett won the first grade 1 of his young career this year taking down the Irish 2000 Guineas.

Question:

Cryin Out Loud had 13 graded races in his 20 career starts, and he’s only failed to pick up a check once, and that was in the Breeders’ Bowl.  He’s only finished out of the top three twice in his entire career of those 20 starts.  Most trainers would throw in a listed or an allowance here and there, just to give him a break.  I mean, that’s just astounding that he’s stayed on the graded trail so long and remained so remarkable consitent.  How much does that speak to how special this horse is, and why?

Skunk:

You could probably include me in that list of most trainers that would throw horses in an easier spot most of the time. But with Cryin Out Loud, he has run so well so often that he has told me by his results that he should be running against the best.

The other key to him and my other horses is something I learned from the sage kingab in SIM chat during some inocuous conversation one day.  Basically, kingab stated that the horse will tell you when it needs a break.  Cryin Out Loud has pretty much told me he is ready to run in every race.  I probably ignored this good advice going 12 furlongs last year before the Breeders’ Bowl, but I felt he needed a race at the distance, and that decision probably cost me the only time I should have known the horse needed a rest.

The other part of listening to the horse is not running him every two or three weeks even if coming up Sharp.  I’ve studied enough of the top trainers, and their best horses to know that great horses show up for big races off of six, seven or even eight weeks rest. He’s only been run on four weeks’ rest between races seven times out of 19 (excluding his debut). I believe that has been a big part of keeping him fresh and in top form. There has been only one true iron horse in the SIM and that was Ray of Pye.  I doubt there will be another freak such as him who could perform at such a high level being raced so frequently.

Question:

Let’s talk a little about awards here.  This was covered yesterday in the pre-interview session a bit, but maybe you could expand on that here.  With three grade 1’s in the bag already, what more do you feel this horse has to do to get Eclipse consideration, or even Horse of The Year consideration?  Just how viable do you think his chances are for either or both awards?  Last year’s Turf Eclipse horse, Signs of Change had four grade 1 wins, and six months into this year, you already have three.  Let’s talk about that a little here. Does it make you feel like you’re just about there, in terms of an Eclipse Award, or even a Horse Of The Year Award?

Skunk:

The best answer I can give as to what he needs to do to get an Eclipse nomination is to keep winning. The turf division is so competitive, and horses are improving constantly. Some other horse could rack up a few grade ones in a row in some big races and run away with a Turf HOY award. So we are taking nothing for granted and are focused on one race at a time. I can tell you that we are not racing for just an Eclipse nomination.

Skunkbarn Stables already achieved that goal with Faraday Cage back in 2010 and most likely finished a head away from the Turf HOY that season.  Make no mistake. The goal is to win Older Turf Horse of The Year with Cryin Out Loud.

The path one takes is just as important as winning, to earn HOY honors. We could point to the $500,000 grade 1’s that are out there and add to the count, but that would be the coward’s route. We’ll go in the big grade 1’s, and whoever wants to challenge us will have their shot. If we come up short there will be no second guessing and conversely if we win, the choice for HOY should be clear.

Question:

You talked about perhaps being the “Allen Jerkens” of the SIM earlier in your career yesterday in our pre-interview session.  Obviously, he’s one of your real life heros.  Can you tell us a little about that, and what is it about that real-life trainer that makes you want to emulate him?  He was known as a giant killer, knocking off the likes of Secretariat, among other giants, during his career.  Have you always seen yourself like that?  And since Cryin Out Loud is a pretty big giant himself now, how does that make you feel?  The tables are sort of turned here, because when Cryin Out Loud shows up in a race now, HE is the horse everyone wants to knock off.  HE has the bullseye on his back now.  How does it feel to have a horse that special, and what does having a top-flight horse like this do to your perception of yourself as the Allen Jerkens of the SIM?

Skunk:

Geez!  Way to put me on the spot, Emmy!  I always admired the reputation Allen Jerkens earned as being the “giant killer”. He would take down some heavily favored horses in big races with horses that seem to be a notch below or just hadn’t had the experience yet to be given adequate consideration.

I liked that approach and have used it as motivation to take down, wherever possible, some of the SIM’s elite trainer’s entries.  I have to be honest, when I came back from my time away from the SIM, I found myself, once I had some decent horses, going Lenny-hunting. No, I wasn’t stalking him, but I wouldn’t shy away from running against him, and I think I may have taken a few wins away from him.  The whole idea of taking on the big SIM operations was and is a motivating challenge.  When you can beat the likes of a Lenny, Texasace, Super and others, it has that Jerkens’ “Giant Killer” feel to it.

Now that Cryin Out Loud has achieved his level of success so far this year, I guess we are indeed the targets. The giant to be slain if you will. It doesn’t feel special at this point, because we still have work to do. We still have Perfect Beast to slay. We still have 12 furlongs to possibly conquer.  So we’re staying hungry with him and not treating him as the favorite of anything. We keep setting the bar higher and higher to create our own straw giant to kill.

I certainly wouldn’t crown myself the Allen Jerkens of the SIM.  There are too many other good trainers out there to bestow that crown upon anyone.  I can’t be the only one shooting for the SIM’s elite trainers in every stakes race.  What I will confirm is that the shrewd management of one’s horse placed in the right race at the right time is a practice I will continue to try and do and try to live up to the true “giant killer” Allen Jerkens.